The Bar Brawl: Quality Control
By The Bar Brawl ~ 24th May 2011
Last week’s brawl was less of a brawl and more of a quiet evening down the local so the awards are a little bit thin on the ground. In fact, the only one who picked one up this week was Greibach who can now be known as “The Novelist” for his lengthy (and well thought out) response. Kudos to him. Soy Oil and Laurelbeard also get a mention on this week’s recap for their enthusiasm and ingenuity respectively. Moving on…
Last Thursday’s release of the Engineer will be remembered as one of the more controversial moment of the Guild Wars 2 unveiling so far. Its probably up there with Transmutation Stones for the number of pages and threads generated about what people liked and what they didn’t. Now the knee jerk reactions of last week are over, we want to hear your thoughts and impressions on the profession. What you love, what and how you’d change it. Are you planning on rolling an Engineer?
Let us know your thoughts by calling us at 708.202.9262, emailing in your mp3 responses at [email protected] or leaving your response below.
Eventually, I’m going to be making one of each profession anyways, but I don’t really see the Engineer as being the new Ritualist. Oh sure, mechanically, the turrets are similar to spirits, but there’s no weapon spells, no item spells, no going secondary-Necro to make a wacky build, and no comparisons being made to Monks. I hope that the Engineer gets a skill similar to the Thief’s Barrage, that would be cool.
As for the barrels with a fuse in it, the LEDs on mines, net clipping, and whatever else, I don’t really care. I care about mechanics, and whether it’s fun to play, not replaceable art assets.
I look forward to seeing what cross-profession combos a MM Necro and a “Turretway” Engineer could discover together. Glue Gun + Poison Cloud? Putrid Explosion + Grenade Barrage? Engineer Kiting + Necromancer Fear? Add in a Guardian, and you’ve got total Control.
The Engineer has been quite an interesting profession release to be sure. It has one of the most complicated skill sets we have seen, and it is quite hard to judge just quite how it will all come together until we can actually play it. It has also drawn the most ire from the community over its artistic inconsistencies. As I see it, there were two MAJOR inconsistencies within the art style, and a few minor ones. The major ones as I see it are the Bleeping Mines with LEDs, and to some extent the magically seeking turret.
The bleeping mine makes most of the other technology feel much older. The functional difference between a barrel of gunpowder and a detonatable mine seems pretty small, and yet the tech is vastly different. A gunpowder barrel is largely a very efficient and easy means of blowing an area up. As such, it makes some sense that the tech hasn’t improved much on that one. The absence of high powered explosives (C4, TNT, etc) puts a hard cap on how effective of an explosive you can make. The LED Mine however seems vastly more technologically advanced. I can buy why that seems off.
The turret is aesthetically acceptable as far as I can tell. It is old-timey, and has the crank action, which I approve of. The thing that is weird is that it auto-seeks. Now, auto-seeking is not a strange *mechanic*, but the Engineer seems to be of the influence that they use no magic, and only use a large variety of gadgets and elixers. It is always possible that they could go for a “Magitech” approach, where the engineers can use a bit of mech-magic to enhance their gadgets. I think that would honestly make them a bit better. It would explain a remote detonator; it would explain a seeking turret, it would explain why they are a special class when seemingly ANYONE could use ANY of their weapons just as effectively. When it comes down to it, I can see why it feels weird to have a class that “anyone” could pick up (in the game world).
On the issue of it not fitting with certain races, I pose the question: So what? Every profession has some races that it makes little “logical” sense for them to use, and I have to say, the Engineer is in fact one of the few that I would say fits EASIEST into any race. Why? Because as I have been saying, without distinctive magic, they are just using devices. Anyone intelligent enough and able to shoot a gun should be able to do what they do. Sylvari, the most-often-used example of a weird fit are inquisitive. They might be fascinated by all the technology. That seems easier to swallow than an Asuran Warrior fighting toe-to-toe with a Norn Warrior. Guns are not dependent on the strength, speed, or size of the user. Weapons are. If we can accept Asuran Warriors, how can we not accept that anyone can shoot a gun or throw a bomb?
Finally, I’d like to talk about class mechanics. It will be very interesting to see how the kits affect the strategies and builds of the Engineer. Turret control seems like it might be very strong, but how much are you giving up by not having more kits? Are kits versatile enough to make up for the lack of turrets? Are they versatile enough that it could be desirable to have all extra kits, or is that just too much overlap/time sink? How hard are the turrets to kill? This is very important for PvP. Just like necromancer minions, there is a fine balance to strike between attack strength and defense. Given the long skill recharges of GW2, having something that dies easily in PvP makes it seem like a waste, and yet having an auto-targeting defense drone can be too powerful if it is too hard to kill. A delicate balance indeed.
Something that interests me is the F1-4 mappings. They seem to indicate that they map to extra functions based on your kits. Does that mean that it is possible that you can build with no kits and thus nothing on F1-4? If so, this would be the first class that you could choose to not use your unique mechanic at all. I am defining unique mechanic as the F1-4 mapped abilities- Ranger Pets, Death Shroud, Adrenaline Burst, Attunements, Steal/Initiative, Virtues, Tool Kit.
Do I want to play one? Its pretty middle of the road. I want to play a Warrior, Necro, and possibly Mesmer first, but I want to play it more than the Ranger, Thief and Ele. I haven’t made up my mind on Guardian. I am glad however that there is a profession that truly reflects the advancements in science and tech of the last 250 years.
Also, it seems that “The Novelist” was an apt title
I managed to cover most of my thoughts on the reaction on the forums behind that link up on the top of this very page, so i’ll make that part brief:
The reserved or outright negative reactions were mostly hasty and nitpicky, at least in the general overview of things. The positive reactions were, predictably, on the other end of the scale, fueled by a desire to not let it appear that everyone hates it. Generally my feelings on the controversy is that if inconsistencies in technological style and animation design is the worst problem we have, maybe we are just bored and want something to talk about. The mine vs the barrel is to me like matches: they’ve been around since Ye Olden Days, and yet despite the invention of lighters, vastly superior in any way if you get the right type, I still use them.
On to more interesting things. The class itself. On that, my feelings are a mixed bag of “Boom? Boom is always fun!” and apprehension. While the first part is selfexplanatory (or you need to grow an inner child right now), the last bit has to do with the complexity. The Thief seemed like a class that combined individually simple elements into something that would be hard to make the most of. The Engineer seems to take a fairly complex set of things and do the same. Of the classes we’ve seen so far, I definitely consider this the hardest one to get good at. Shall I go into why? Why, yes, I think I may do just that.
The Lack of Time Travel: I think a lot of Engineers will end a fight face down in the dirt thinking something along the lines of “Damn, if only I’d brought a Turret/Bomb Kit/Flame Thrower”. The class have many options, and unlike other classes, who all face this problem to some extent, they are as far as I can tell mostly committed to whatever they went with once the fight starts. That’s part of the charm, the appeal to those who like to strategize, yet also a potential weakness of the class. Now, don’t get me wrong, I think classes should have weaknesses. However, if it begins to feel like the fight was decided before it began (because you couldn’t predict what skills to take and couldn’t compensate), it may turn out to be a situational class. Useful maybe for holding the line in PvP, but a bit of a chore elsewhere.
The Lack of Short-range Teleportation: This is mostly for the turrets, and assumes you must physically interact with a deployed turret to pack it back up and move it.. Area control, alright. However, what about when the boss punts you across the map, and you need to reposition that turret that is, hopefully, a rather significant part of what you are supposed to be doing? Do you end up endlessly running back and forth to get them into the optimal position? If what they do for you is significant (and it should be), then you cannot ignore a badly placed turret. But how fun is it, really, to never get to fight much yourself, because you have to split your attention. The other end of that concern is that badly placed turret isn’t a big loss, leaving them either ignored or the skills unused entirely. There are certainly attractive alternatives.
The Many Ways of the the Boom: While Engineers have few regular weapons, they will, from what we know so far, usually in fact have more available to them at the same time than any other class. Their weapons a more situational, but just a minimal loadout of weapon + 1 kit + 1 turret is 15 attack skills that you have to keep in your head and be ready to switch to at a moments notice. Add in the 4 Toolbelt ones (that you can thankfully see on the UI), and I foresee instances of “Oh yeah, I had bombs too. Why didn’t I use them?” This is not a bad thing (remember, I’m talking about why this class looks hard, in case I lost you), but certainly also not everyones mug of stout. The complete lack of melee ability is also a neat twist. I don’t consider the Flamethrowers a melee weapon. They are, I think, more akin to elementalist Scepter or Focus skills. “Short range” is still longer than a swords length.
So what does it all add up to? Well, I’m certainly not going to play it. That has nothing to do with the class, which I think is good (and is only going to get better as ANet do their iteration magic), and has everything to do with my love of magic and hopes for the mesmer-alike that is yet to come. However, if I do make on, I’m making a Sylvari Engineer with my first priority being to use flamethrowers to burn down a forest…. because as a Sylvari I must know whether they actually burn just as fast from flamethrowers as from meteor showers. You know…. FOR SCIENCE!
155 characters more.- In your face, Greibach!!
Bahaha. Well played. Doesn’t it feel good to get it all out? Anyway, great post, I found myself nodding the whole way.
I was thinking about blogging about the engineer but I do so love a good brawl.
Ascetically the engineer is a jarring profession for me as they are essentially the scions of three separate cultures, the Asura the Charr and the Dwarves. From Dwarven powder kegs to Asuran elixir guns and Charr flame throwers these three systems comingle to make a profession that is essentially a gestalt.
Personally I plan to play a human engineer as one of my alts. Her main RP characteristic will be a refusal to use any Charr based technology preferring to deal with golems and elixers. The variability of the engineer shines greatly in RP giving options for the player to be a mad bomber, a curious alchemist or a magi/tech punk hero with a mohawk.
I disagree with the complaint about auto targeting turrets. Clearly it is using an internal Asuran scrying gem to determine targets that are enemies of the engineer to whom the crystal is attuned. While the blinking red dot on the may seem silly it is most likely a safety system the Asura designed with a telepathically attuned crystal informing allies of the presence of the mine field. The light also allows for easy recovery before the engineer leaves the area; this ensures the prevention any unfortunate accidents. The most interesting thing about such safety features in every mine suggests that incorporating work krews actually resulted in a greater corporate concern for the well being of others, perhaps just another way Asura are different from humans.
This…. was brilliant. Demonstrating the creative, imaginative, type of thinking I expect to see from a community involved with “fantasy worlds.”
I tip my hat sir… well done, well said.
Thus far… everyone responding has been far too intelligent, reasonable, and diplomatic in approaching this subject… well F that! It’s BOOM time people… y’all better buckle up!
So help me… if I hear one more whinging comment on mines, turrets, or any other skill not conforming to some close-minded, un-imaginative, moronic, pre-concieved expectations which are founded on exactly jack-squat I’m gonna glue gun the idiot who does it… right in the face!
We’ve seen hairy, fanged, Charr warriors wearing “full plate and packing steel” who whip out a freakin musket and start shooting…. nobody so much as blinked an eye. (And we heard damn few comments about how inappropriate the class was for certain races. If anything, many folks actually reveled in thought of a little Asura planting a banner and busting out a can o’wupass.)
We’ve seen Necromancers yanking up minions, that are supposedly formed from rotting flesh and bones, from any old place… nevermind that there is no actual soil there for anything to be buried in… No problem with this from the community.
We’ve seen Guardians yank a gianormous weapon out of… well, … out of you know where… which then proceeds to automagically target the Guardian’s enemies, and I heard not even a peep of “wait a minute…” from the community.
There’s a word used to describe folks who blindly accept one set of behavior / norms from a certain segment of the population, while being just as blindly intolerant of the EXACT SAME norms from a different segment of the population… bigot. BIGOT. You heard me right…
Check yourself… if you didn’t even blink an eye when you saw a GIANT GLOWING HAMMER auto targeting enemies after being produced from… nowhere… but you now have an issue with a tripod mounted self-loading, self-firing, auto-targeting steampunkish gun… ask yourself a hard question; where does the failure lay? In a world where this sort of automagical stuff has already been well established and accepted? OR… in your own failure of imagination?
Now, there have been some members of the community (here, and elsewhere on the interwebs) that have done an excellent job of defending the Engineer class (far better than myself) and god bless those folks, because they’ve probably kept me from blowing a gasket. Some of them (like Coehl, Tigerfeet, and Tasha on episode 41 of the podcast here) have even managed to do so in such an admirably open-minded, and diplomatic fashion that they stand a decent chance of cracking open some of the bigotted, closed-minds who are whinging about this silliness. While others (like Shongaqu just above me in the comments – figuratively and literally) have defended the Engineer with brilliantly, creative imagination that is so charming it almost can’t help but sway opinions on the subject.
For those of you who have prompted such defenses with your closed-minded, feeble, and unimaginative attitudes… shame on you. Free your mind.
(Honestly, I had pretty much settled on devoting most of time towards 3 characters – a Necro, Thief, and probably a Guardian – but now I find myself having to reconsider. Normally, I prefer to “RP” with my characters, and I generally at least attempt to avoid touching the “4th wall” while playing MMOs, but I find my reaction to the bigotted, unimaginative comments on this class is more visceral than I expected. Unlike some, I am lacking in diplomatic prowess when it comes to matters such as this, and I expect I will be forced to create an Asura Engineer and run around the lands of Tyria shouting, “I am the evil Midnight Bomber, wut bombs at midnight!” and generally displaying all of the “immersion breaking” skills of the class in the most obnoxiously competent, effective, and visible ways possible… you’ve brought this on yourselves!)
I have no idea what the word count on that is… but I said what needed saying.
Good rant! I feel like shouting “True dat!” and “Can I get a witness?!”
(Oh, and Greibach still has you beat 
)
Rubi from massively did an interview for gamebreaker tv talking about this “controversy”. The reactions of her co-hosts were telling: They were mindboggled that these sort of small complaints is what passes for controversy.
Yep… Shawn and Rubi discussed it on Massively Speaking also…
*sigh*
I know I’m a freakin stereotype (old guy w/shotgun on porch) at this point, but I really do find it both incredible and annoying… I mean, how much “tech” was in the manifesto video? That was released August last year? Did these people just wake up from comas? The screenshots and videos I’ve seen have been showing exactly this sort of tech stuff for roughly a year but only now folks are nit picking it?
… I’m very grateful that I have not been in the actual physical presence of anyone stirring this pot… reflexive reaction would land me in trouble that involves police reports… “Honestly officer, I was simply trying to perform CPR for them… on their brain.”
Whooo brawl
*Picks up a chair and smahes it over the head of a norn who was calmly discussing the leveling curve*
I will say that I think that the engineer will probalby feel more natural once we get into the world and actually interact with how it has changed over 250 years.
My necromancer is going to be very lost for a good bit of time.
I know this round of the brawl is officially over, but even so, your vigorous comment compelled me to make a reply. So here it is: My problem with the engineer. Well, not so much with the engineer per se (in fact, I think I’ll enjoy the engineer), but rather with the specific bit of controversy (although it’s not really a controversy – “point of dispute” then, how does that sound?) surrounding the turrets and mines.
It’s not that the turret is auto-targeting, or that the mines beep, but that they function in these ways using only 19th century-level technology. Put a lens on the turret, and slam two asuran crystals into both devices, and I would have bought the whole concept.
When I look at the technology the engineer uses, I feel like the developers are cheating. They’ve spent a _lot_ of time creating Tyria, countless manhours fleshing out all the details of the world. They wrote not one book, but two, with at least one more coming. I can only imagine how much material they have that will never even be seen by fans. Clearly, lore is a very important part of what Anet does. Clearly, world-building is something they enjoy and do well. So why not use lore to explain how these inventions work?
As I’ve said before, as a player of a computer game, there are some things you just have to accept. Invisible inventory, for example, or every single player being the chosen one. These are sacrifices that are necessary for reasons of gameplay in an MMO. These things, I am more than willing to overlook.
Then there are the things like every race being able to play every profession. This is an idea that bridges lore and gameplay, and while, personally, I don’t think every race _should_ be able to play every profession, I can see why this is a necessary sacrifice to make.
Then we have the turrets. You ask “[...] where does the failure lay? In a world where this sort of automagical stuff has already been well established and accepted? OR… in your own failure of imagination?”. Personally, I don’t think that it _has_ been well established and accepted. Giant glowing hammers appearing out of nowhere, golems moving around on their own, raising undead minions from the ground… These are things allowed within the rules of the world. There is magic. (Although, I do take issue with raising minions from a hardwood floor or a stone bridge.) As I said, I don’t mind that the turrets are there, I just wish they would have been more obviously magical.
I realize the relative insignificance of my gripes, but as a lore-buff, pen-and-paper role-player, and aspiring writer, I care about these trivial things. Gamebreaking they certainly are not. They just sadden me a little is all.
I hope you didn’t burst any veins on your forehead reading this (or fall asleep – I got carried away). If so, just tell me what server you’ll play your immersion-breaking little asura dude on, so I can stay away. ^^
I have no well thought out point. I have no purpose. But I no likely moderny engineer. I really wanted clockwork/steampunk/clockpunk. We get modern warfare, automatic fireing guns and stuffs… It is very poopy.
How amazing would a team fortress 2 or modern warfare game be if set in the Guild wars universe… just think about that asura mechs vs char tanks vs human… human… yeah the humans are probably dead. The norn would probably end up like techno-samurai from anime and the sylvari would be the avatars of nature trying to keep the world from being consumed by the fires of industry.
If it is fun to play I will play it and if it sucks I will not. See what I did there. I fit my whole point of view into a single sentence.